Herrington on American Alchemy: UFOs and Secrecy

The Episode at a Glance

Detail	Information
Show	American Alchemy (Jesse Michels’ YouTube channel)
Host	Jesse Michels
Guest	John S. Herrington — born 1939; according to Wikipedia Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Manpower and Reserve Affairs from October 1981 to February 1983, then at the White House Presidential Personnel Office, and Secretary of Energy from February 7, 1985 to January 20, 1989. The episode description calls him a founding board member of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library. Joining by video later in the conversation: screenwriter and producer Brent Friedman (podcast “Sound, Light & Frequency”), a former guest on the show.
Date / length	October 7, 2026 · about 109 minutes (more than 1.1 million views after nine days)
Link	youtube.com/watch?v=1F7DHbSbgbQ
Three key takeaways	1) Herrington considers the Navy footage authentic, does not know its origin, and says he saw nothing about UFOs in budgets or programs during his tenure. 2) He calls Friedman’s story (briefcase, secret bunker briefings, a statement that aliens are real) “total BS” and rejects any retrieved craft at Roswell. 3) Jesse pushes back with witnesses, documents and studies and lets Friedman respond — the episode offers no proof for the UFO thesis, but a rare open argument.

Watch the Episode

Chapter Guide with Timestamps

1. 0:00 — Introduction and Friedman’s story about “the neighbor” (1:28)
2. 8:14 — First meeting with Reagan; his diaries and self-written speeches
3. 13:02 — The Strategic Defense Initiative (“Star Wars”) and Edward Teller
4. 17:33 — The 1949 Green Fireballs document and Herrington’s view of the UFO question (18:47)
5. 21:28 — Herrington denies Friedman’s story
6. 24:49 — The Greenbrier bunker in West Virginia
7. 27:26 — Friedman responds; the 1981 conversation on the veranda (29:43)
8. 39:01 — David Grusch and the Politico journalist (41:36)
9. 44:32 — UFOs at nuclear weapons sites; Harold Malmgren’s debris pieces (46:09)
10. 50:59 — The F-117, Skunk Works and the secret budget line
11. 53:53 — Garry Nolan’s Ubatuba sample; Reagan’s 1974 sighting (56:57)
12. 1:06:06 — The ocean floor, NURO and the CIA’s Hollywood liaison (1:07:26)
13. 1:11:28 — A nuclear airplane, Project Orion and nuclear testing
14. 1:13:37 — “Show me evidence”; the Palomar transients (1:15:37); precognition (1:17:13)
15. 1:31:01 — Marco Rubio, the Atomic Energy Act and Rickover (1:32:54)
16. 1:40:17 — Sign-off and Reagan keepsakes; then Friedman on the “hazing” theory (1:42:45)

Note: The sponsor reads (a doctor-booking app and a creatine supplement) at 6:06–7:35 and 49:23–50:59 are not part of the content.

Deep Dive: Seven Claims From the Episode and What Holds Up

1. The Navy videos are real — the guest just doesn’t know what they are

Herrington says nothing about UFOs crossed his desk as Secretary: no budget item, no program. Rumors about Area 51 circulated, he says, but nothing about extraterrestrials (18:47–19:31). The Navy gun-camera footage he considers authentic: “I frankly, Jesse, I don’t know what they are” (about 19:50). The propulsion needed for such flight paths, he reasons, exceeds what any country he knows of can do. Submarine encounters he suspects are whales. He declines to follow his host to conclusions: that something flies over military installations he accepts; what it is, he has no idea.

Context and fact-check: The Pentagon itself confirmed in April 2020 that the three well-known Navy videos are authentic and classified them as “unidentified aerial phenomena.” Authentic only means not faked. What they show remains open; the Pentagon’s All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO), in its 2024 historical report, said it found no evidence of extraterrestrial technology or crash-retrieval programs. Herrington’s position — real, but unknown — is therefore close to the official one. His statement that he saw nothing during his tenure is testimony from a cabinet secretary: valuable, but it does not rule out programs that bypassed his office, which he concedes himself (51:06).

2. Friedman’s story is fabricated — word against word

Jesse summarizes the origin of the episode at the start (1:28–4:26): Friedman says on “Sound, Light & Frequency” that Herrington, once a next-door neighbor, asked him in 1981 to drive cars across the country to Washington. On the evening of arrival, he says, Herrington appeared with security staff and a briefcase chained to his wrist, spoke of months-long briefings at a facility in West Virginia, said aliens are real, and told him he cried himself to sleep. Herrington rejects it (21:28–24:05): in summer 1981 he held a junior position in the White House political office, with no limousine, no security detail and no briefcase; a secret site was never part of his work. Friedman helped move the cars, he says, but he barely knew him. The story, he says, is “total BS” (about 22:30).

Friedman answers on video (27:26–33:04): he lived next door to the Herringtons between ages six and twelve, and Herrington taught him football. He says Herrington told him that day that if he ever used his name, he would deny everything. He says he first named him around 2019 or 2020, and that shortly before his show launched he received a handwritten congratulatory note from Herrington, which he still has to find (37:36). He says he is willing to take a polygraph (35:13).

Context and fact-check: Little is independently checkable. The offices Herrington names fit the public record: Assistant Secretary of the Navy from October 1981, the White House personnel office from 1983 to 1985, Secretary of Energy from February 1985. He was not a cabinet member in 1981, so a claim that he then held higher clearances than the president would be hard to square with his rank. Against Friedman, there are no documents, witnesses or contemporaneous notes from 1981; Unknown Country noted the same in a July 2026 report that cites journalist Ross Coulthart saying Herrington rejected the story when asked. In Friedman’s favor, a private conversation leaves no trace by nature, and he has publicly offered a lie-detector test. One tension in Herrington’s account: he says he hired Friedman to help drive the cars (22:35) yet also that he knew him only as a baby (21:04). The two statements are not necessarily contradictory, but they raise questions. We treat both versions as unverified statements; deciding who is mistaken is not ours to do.

3. The bunker in West Virginia: what Friedman meant, what Herrington knows

Herrington acknowledges knowing the government bunker beneath a West Virginia hotel: he toured it as Secretary during a golf trip (24:49–25:35), not before. Friedman points out that public knowledge of such facilities did not exist in 1981 (33:04) — anyone describing a West Virginia facility then knew something that wasn’t in the newspaper.

Context and fact-check: The facility is the Greenbrier bunker near White Sulphur Springs. Construction began in 1958 as a relocation site for Congress in a nuclear war; it became public only in 1992 through a Washington Post report by Ted Gup. Friedman’s point that few people knew of it in 1981 is accurate. It proves little, though: a reference to “a facility in West Virginia” in 1981 could trace back to rumor, to professional knowledge from other sources, or to memory aligning itself with later information. Any recollection across 45 years has to allow for that.

4. UFOs over nuclear weapons sites

Jesse points to roughly 170 service members who reported UFOs at nuclear bases, naming Malmstrom in Montana, Ellsworth and F. E. Warren, along with Savannah River and Pantex (44:32–45:03; 1:03:08). Herrington says he has no information on that (45:03). On whether Roswell was extraterrestrial he is blunt: “Absolutely were no retrieved UFOs” (about 1:28:40), and he says he is highly confident. On whether UFO secrecy could sit under the Atomic Energy Act — Grusch’s argument that radioactive material is “born secret” — he calls the idea nonsense: the Atomic Energy Commission was independent and publicized its work (1:32:54–1:34:35).

Context and fact-check: The witness accounts come mainly from Robert Hastings’ book UFOs and Nukes (2008), which compiles interviews with former security and missile personnel; they are testimony, and no case has been officially confirmed. The “born secret” concept is real: the Atomic Energy Act of 1946 (rewritten in 1954) defines “Restricted Data” as classified from the moment it is created. Whether it was ever applied to unknown material is an assertion without published evidence. One small correction to Herrington: the Atomic Energy Commission was dissolved in 1974–75 and the Department of Energy created in 1977; he says “’76.” A detail that does not change his main point.

5. Material at Stanford: Ubatuba and the magnesium samples

Jesse says evidence exists: a 1950s Oak Ridge document describes magnesium-bismuth material with strange isotope ratios, and Stanford professor Garry Nolan has analyzed material from a beach at Ubatuba, Brazil, whose magnesium ratios are far off (53:53–55:30). Herrington asks about provenance and chain of custody and why it has not been dated; anyone with debris, he says, must explain where the rest is and what failed (55:30–56:57). He does not turn down an invitation to Stanford but sounds unimpressed.

Context and fact-check: The Ubatuba fragments trace back to an alleged 1957 crash. In an interview reported by IFLScience, Nolan said he analyzed two magnesium samples from Ubatuba: one had perfectly normal isotope ratios and the other was off by roughly 30 percent. Magnesium isotope ratios can be altered, though only at great expense, and it is unclear who would manipulate a 70-year-old sample. We could not find a peer-reviewed publication. So the state of play is one anomalous measurement, one normal sample and an open provenance question. Herrington’s question about the chain of custody is the standard forensic question.

6. The Palomar transients: light points on plates from before satellites

Jesse describes work by Stockholm astrophysicist Beatriz Villarroel, who found flat, mirror-like light points on 1950s Palomar plates, and a follow-up at Vanderbilt showing they appear more often around nuclear tests — “70 percent,” he says (1:15:37–1:16:32). Herrington reacts warmly: Jesse should stay on it, he wants to hear the answer.

Context and fact-check: The study is published: Bruehl & Villarroel, Scientific Reports 15, 34125 (2025). Transients were about 45 percent more likely on days within one day of an above-ground nuclear test, and roughly 68 percent more likely on the day after. Jesse’s 70 percent is thus a rounding up of the strongest sub-figure. The authors stress this is not proof of a cause, does not settle what the transients are, and say the significance of the associations remains to be determined. The correlation is documented; reading it as UFOs is not.

7. The “hazing” theory: were the aliens an initiation test?

After the interview, Jesse and Friedman discuss whether Herrington might have “tested” Friedman (1:42:45–1:48:08). Jesse cites an earlier guest, a former intelligence chief at the Department of Energy, who described a ritual in which new senior appointees were “hazed” with a staged alien briefing until someone cracked up (1:44:18). Friedman finds this fits what he has learned about tests and initiations and says he is open to it as a possibility.

Context and fact-check: This is the most speculative passage and also an interesting bridge. What is documented is that U.S. military intelligence personnel fed false UFO information to targets in the 1980s — the best-known case is Paul Bennewitz, who was fed disinformation by an Air Force counterintelligence agent, Richard Doty. That such practices fed rituals and legends is conceivable; for the specific “Roswell hazing” at the Department of Energy there is only the oral account in the episode. As an explanation of Friedman’s experience the theory is untestable. It does show how hard witness statements are to classify in this field: a “denial” and a “confession” can both be part of a game — or simply a misunderstanding.

Beyond UFOs: Reagan, SDI and the Golden Dome

A big part of the episode (8:14–17:33) is about Reagan. On the Strategic Defense Initiative, Herrington recalls Edward Teller’s nuclear-pumped X-ray laser (“Excalibur”), said to be able to hit a silver dollar at 500 miles. The program existed; it never reached deployment. Herrington sees today’s “Golden Dome” as late vindication. Also notable is his aside that a nuclear-powered airplane sits in a hangar in Idaho Falls (1:10:31–1:12:03): the “Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion” program (1946–1961) did exist; no aircraft ever flew on nuclear power, and test engines are on display in Idaho. The attribution to Howard Hughes is unsupported.

What’s New — and What Stays Contradictory

New first: a former cabinet secretary addresses the UAP question at length, with a firm no on crash retrievals, a yes on the Navy videos and a willingness to speak to Congress (1:31:31–1:33:02). New second: the format — American Alchemy puts the opposing side into the same episode, which is rare in podcast circles. What stays contradictory: Herrington rejects a former neighbor’s story but acknowledges hiring him as a driver; he concedes secret parallel programs (the F-117, the nuclear aircraft, NURO — the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office) but denies any knowledge of UFOs; and he preaches skepticism while saying he believes some people can see the future (1:17:13). For the community, that makes this conversation neither proof for nor against the topic, but a time capsule about the limits of insider knowledge.

Voices From the Community

As of October 16, 2026, we read the top YouTube comments. We found no substantial Reddit thread on this episode, so this picture rests on YouTube alone. It is clear: most comments are critical of Herrington, and we found no top comment defending him. Paraphrased:

• YouTube, @johndant… (about 1,200 likes): jokes that by the end Herrington denied ever having been interviewed by Jesse.
• YouTube, @jasonvib… (about 1,600 likes): says the conversation felt like “hitting your head against a wall” and accuses Herrington of staying loyal to the establishment even in retirement — an opinion, not evidence.
• YouTube, @betsyd… (about 1,400 likes): believes Herrington has to deny Friedman’s story because otherwise he would admit breaking his security oath.
• YouTube, @RyanKidd… and @bjornneuh…: praise Jesse for disagreeing with his guest, defending Grusch and presenting Friedman’s side.
• YouTube, @Tbone19… (21 likes): bails at minute 21: someone who “knows nothing” and thinks submarine sightings are whales has little to offer.
• YouTube, @kaelsur… (about 450 likes): sums it up as the guest coming on to say that he “doesn’t know.”

The mood leans skeptical toward the guest more than toward the UFO question. What the comments leave open is whether a secretary’s ignorance says anything at all — which is exactly what we ask below.

Why It Matters for the “New World”

A new world needs ways of living with uncertainty. This episode shows what that can look like and what it can’t. On one side is an 87-year-old man with a worldview from an era when secrecy was normal, who still says he is not blind to what he sees on television. On the other is a scene that turns suspicion into certainty quickly. Between them lies the space Temple of Desire wants to keep: curious, generous, sober. That means taking witnesses seriously and still asking for records; listening when Herrington speaks of intuitive “knowing without explanation” (1:17:13–1:18:00); and noticing that the closing conversation talks about a convergence of science and spirituality. In practice: check whether a story rests on documents, on measurements or on one voice, and be willing to live with open questions. We back the debate; we don’t sell certainties.

Critical Questions the Episode Leaves Open

1. What does a secretary’s ignorance tell us about programs that, by the guest’s own account, were so secret that even he was not meant to see them (51:06)?
2. How can a 1981 private conversation be verified when both sides hold to their versions — and what evidence would both sides accept?
3. If the guest rules out retrievals with high confidence, what is that confidence based on — his own access to files or the absence of rumors around him?
4. Which of the “material proofs” (Ubatuba, Oak Ridge) have been independently replicated and peer-reviewed?
5. Can the hazing theory serve as an explanation without absorbing every counter-observation?

Glossary

UAP

“Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena”: the current U.S. official term for unidentified phenomena in the air, in space and underwater; it replaces “UFO.”

Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI)

Reagan’s 1980s missile defense program, popularly called “Star Wars.”

Restricted Data

A category defined in the Atomic Energy Act covering nuclear weapon and fissile material information that is classified by default.

Greenbrier bunker

A secret nuclear shelter under a West Virginia hotel built for Congress; made public in 1992.

Transients

Short-lived light points on historic sky photographs that cannot be matched to a known object.

Isotope ratio

The ratio of atomic variants of an element; very stable on Earth, which is why it is used as a “fingerprint” of material.

Hazing

An initiation prank in which newcomers are deliberately deceived as a test.

Keep Reading

• Aztec 1948: Jesse Michels Revisits the Other Roswell
• Deep Prasad on American Alchemy: Is AI Alien Tech?
• Element 115 and Bob Lazar: What the Lab Data Show
• Remote Viewing and the CIA Stargate Files
• Hessdalen Lights: What 40 Years of Data Show

Frequently Asked Questions

What is the American Alchemy episode with John Herrington about?

Former U.S. Secretary of Energy John Herrington talks about Reagan, missile defense and UFOs; he calls the Navy videos real, rejects crash retrievals and denies a story in which he supposedly told a neighbor about aliens (October 7, 2026, about 109 minutes).

Who is John Herrington?

He served as U.S. Secretary of Energy under Ronald Reagan from February 1985 to January 1989, and before that as Assistant Secretary of the Navy and in the White House personnel office; he was born in 1939.

What does Brent Friedman claim?

The screenwriter says Herrington privately told him in 1981 that aliens are real. Herrington denies it; there is no independent evidence for either version.

Does Herrington confirm UFOs?

No. He considers the Navy footage authentic and its origin unknown, but rules out crash retrievals with high confidence.

What should we make of the Palomar transients?

A 2025 study in Scientific Reports found a statistical clustering around 1950s nuclear tests; the authors leave open what it means.

Was anything proven in the episode?

No. The episode offers statements, counter-statements and pointers to studies and samples, but no independently verified evidence of non-human technology.